In Conversation with Erich McElroy

8 June, 2026

[Transcript edited for clarity, flow and length]

Mary Trump: I had a great conversation with my friend Erich McElroy about the latest corruption coming out of the Trump regime, the assault on independent media, the family’s endless grifting, and why the fight for democracy is far from over. We covered everything from Donald’s latest tax scheme to the capture of major news organizations and what it all means for the future of America.

Erich McElroy: Mary, it’s always wonderful to have you back. Every time we talk, the news cycle somehow becomes even more surreal, and yet here we are again.

Mary Trump: Erich, first of all, it is so great to be back. I cannot believe how long it has been.

We are living in an entirely different universe from the one we were living in two years ago, and things were already bad then. It feels as if, since the beginning of this year, America has simply fallen off a cliff.

The important thing for everybody to understand is that when you are talking about Donald and, as it turns out, the Republican Party, there is no such thing as “worst.” It can always get worse.

I think the upcoming events perfectly illustrate that. There is Donald’s birthday celebration on June 14 and the country’s 250th anniversary. In many ways, America has become completely unrecognizable.

Erich McElroy: Whenever we speak, I always think back to your first book and the way you described your family. Does it ever become less surreal that your own uncle is at the center of all of this?

Mary Trump: It never goes away because it is simply a fact. I cannot undo it.

What has changed is the emotional impact. When Donald first entered the Oval Office in 2017, hearing his name was incredibly jarring. I constantly had MSNBC on and was endlessly scrolling Twitter, and I had not yet learned how to separate the public figure from the family member.

At least once or twice every day I would stop in my tracks as the reality crashed over me.

America had done this to itself.

Donald was sitting in the Oval Office.

That particular shock no longer happens, and I feel completely disconnected from that family. My relationship to them is purely biological. It carries no emotional significance anymore.

What remains is a profound awareness that my uncle is actively destroying our country and potentially causing enormous damage around the world. That is something I take very seriously, even if it no longer affects me in the same personal way.

Erich McElroy: There are certainly members of my family I would never hand nuclear codes to.

Mary Trump: Exactly.

Erich McElroy: The family continues to make headlines as well. Ivanka Trump is facing protests in Albania over plans to develop an island there.

Mary Trump: The thing about this family that continues to amaze me is that every single one of them is awful.

There is not one of them with redeeming characteristics. The cluelessness, the selfishness, the greed, and the belief that they are somehow superior to everybody else, despite being completely unqualified, is astonishing.

Of course they believe they deserve a private island. Of course they believe they should be allowed to destroy an ecosystem if it benefits them financially. Entitlement is the defining characteristic of every member of that family.

The only encouraging part of that story is that people are pushing back against it.

Erich McElroy: One report described Ivanka discovering the island while walking barefoot across it, only for later reports to reveal that parts of the island still contain unexploded land mines.

Mary Trump: That certainly would make for an interesting walk.

Erich McElroy: Someone suggested she probably sent Jared ahead of her.

Mary Trump: That sounds entirely plausible.

Erich McElroy: Speaking of family privilege, Todd Blanche is now proposing IRS audit immunity for members of the Trump family. Maybe you qualify.

Mary Trump: That’s actually a very good point.

I should find out how broadly that language is written because, technically speaking, I am a member of the Trump family.

The proposal itself, however, should outrage every American.

We are talking about using taxpayer dollars to protect people who have spent years enriching themselves at everyone else’s expense. It is another example of the Trump regime creating one set of rules for themselves and another for everybody else.

It is also important to remember that Donald still faces enormous potential tax liability. Those audits existed for a reason, and this proposal looks very much like an effort to make those problems disappear.

Anybody who pays taxes should be deeply offended by this.

At the same time, Donald has systematically weakened the IRS’s ability to investigate corporations and the wealthiest Americans, ensuring that ordinary taxpayers carry an even greater burden.

Erich McElroy: Donald has always argued that paying taxes is for losers, yet his supporters continue paying theirs while watching him spend their money on ballrooms, renovations, and personal vanity projects.

Mary Trump: Some supporters genuinely do not care because Donald is giving them something they value even more.

One mistake Democrats have made for decades is assuming that everybody votes based on economic self interest.

That simply is not true.

For many people, preserving white privilege, targeting immigrants, rolling back civil rights, and making life harder for people they dislike is more important than improving their own economic circumstances.

Others are trapped inside a cult that convinces them sacrificing Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid is somehow necessary to make America great again.

Donald has spent years preparing people to accept exactly that.

The encouraging news is that reality is becoming impossible to ignore.

Prices continue to rise. Inflation continues to increase. We are involved in another unnecessary war that Donald promised would never happen. The economy is struggling, and many of the people who believed his promises are beginning to understand that they were deceived.

That does not solve our problems, but it does create an opportunity for people to start paying attention again.

Erich McElroy: One of the challenges has always been getting people to recognize the difference between spectacle and governance.

Donald seems completely focused on creating distractions while institutions quietly deteriorate underneath him.

Mary Trump: That has always been his strategy.

Donald creates chaos because chaos prevents accountability.

If everyone is reacting to the latest outrageous statement or manufactured controversy, they are not paying attention to the dismantling of institutions, the erosion of democratic norms, or the extraordinary corruption taking place in plain sight.

That is why it is so important to remain focused.

Every day there is another scandal, another outrage, another attempt to normalize behavior that would have been unimaginable only a few years ago.

We cannot allow ourselves to become numb to it.

The normalization of corruption is one of the greatest dangers we face because once people begin accepting it as ordinary, democracy becomes much easier to dismantle.

Erich McElroy: It feels as though exhaustion has become part of the political strategy.

Mary Trump: Absolutely.

People become overwhelmed. They stop paying attention because it feels impossible to keep up. That is exactly what authoritarians want. They rely on people becoming exhausted, cynical, and disengaged. The antidote is community, persistence, and continuing to tell the truth no matter how overwhelming the moment feels.

That is why independent media matters so much right now.

We need places where facts still matter and where people are willing to speak honestly about what is happening instead of pretending everything is normal.

Nothing about this moment is normal.

Erich McElroy: One thing that continues to surprise me is how often Donald attacks institutions that Americans once took for granted. Whether it is the justice system, universities, or the media, nothing seems off limits.

Mary Trump: That’s because institutions represent accountability, and Donald has spent his entire life avoiding accountability.

He cannot function in an environment where rules apply equally to everyone because he has always believed the rules should bend for him.

What we’re seeing now is not random. It is a systematic effort to undermine every institution capable of holding him responsible.

If you convince people that the courts are corrupt, that elections are rigged, that journalists are dishonest, and that experts cannot be trusted, then the only remaining source of truth becomes Donald himself.

That is the foundation of authoritarianism.

Erich McElroy: And yet people continue to ask whether Donald actually believes the things he says or whether he is simply performing for an audience.

Mary Trump: I think people spend too much time trying to answer that question. Donald believes whatever is useful to him in the moment.

He has no fixed principles, no consistent ideology, and no moral center. The only constant is that he believes he deserves power, admiration, and immunity from consequences. Everything else is negotiable.

That makes him extraordinarily dangerous because there is no line he will not cross if he believes crossing it benefits him.

Erich McElroy: You have often described him as profoundly weak, which seems counterintuitive given the amount of power he currently holds.

Mary Trump: Donald mistakes intimidation for strength.

Strong people do not need loyalty oaths. They do not need military parades celebrating themselves. They do not need to threaten journalists, universities, judges, or political opponents.

Strong leaders welcome criticism because they understand that disagreement is part of democracy.

Donald cannot tolerate disagreement because any challenge to his authority feels like a threat to his identity.

Everything he does comes from fear and insecurity.

Ironically, that is one of the reasons I remain hopeful.

Authoritarian systems built around one deeply insecure individual are inherently unstable because they require constant demonstrations of power to hide fundamental weakness.

Erich McElroy: Do you think more Americans are beginning to recognize that?

Mary Trump: I do.

People may disagree about politics, but they understand instability when they experience it.

They understand rising prices, uncertainty about their jobs, and the feeling that the country is moving in the wrong direction.

Donald promised competence. Instead, Americans are watching dysfunction unfold every single day.

Eventually propaganda collides with reality.

Erich McElroy: One of the things I appreciate about your work is that, despite everything, you continue to make room for optimism.

Mary Trump: I think optimism is a choice. Hope is not something that simply appears. It is something we create through action. If I truly believed nothing could change, there would be no reason to keep doing this work.

Instead, I see extraordinary people organizing in their communities, showing up at town halls, supporting independent journalism, protecting vulnerable neighbors, and refusing to accept authoritarianism as inevitable.

Those people remind me every day that America is bigger than Donald Trump.

Erich McElroy: Which brings us back to the title of your Substack, The Good in Us.

Mary Trump: Exactly. The title is aspirational as much as it is descriptive. The good exists, but it requires participation. Democracy requires participation. Kindness requires participation. Community requires participation. We cannot simply wait for someone else to solve these problems.

Every generation is eventually asked whether it will defend democracy or quietly surrender it. Unfortunately, that is the question our generation is being asked right now.

Erich McElroy: It is a sobering way to look at the moment, but also an empowering one.

Mary Trump: I think so. People often underestimate the cumulative impact of small acts of courage. Showing up matters. Voting matters. Supporting independent media matters. Having difficult conversations with friends and family matters.

Defending facts matters.

None of us can solve these problems alone, but millions of people making those choices every day can absolutely change the direction of a country.

Erich McElroy: Before we wrap up, I want to ask one final question.

After everything that has happened, what keeps you going?

Mary Trump: Honestly, the people.

Everywhere I travel, I meet Americans who are exhausted, frightened, and frustrated, but who still care deeply about each other and about the future of this country.

They volunteer, organize, donate, protest, teach, write, and refuse to give up.

Donald thrives on convincing people they are powerless. The best way to defeat that message is to prove him wrong. We still have agency. We still have each other. And as long as we continue showing up for one another, I believe we have every reason to keep fighting.

Erich McElroy: That feels like the perfect place to end.

Mary, it is always a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you for joining us.

Mary Trump: Thank you, Erich. It is always wonderful to be here.

American Ex-Pat Looks at Life in the US from the UK