In Conversation with Joyce Vance

The Trump Vance Alternative

[Transcript edited for clarity, flow and length]

Mary Trump: As you are probably aware, talking about the ongoing horrors is actually a full time job. Joyce Vance and I decided to do something different just a few weeks out from this country’s 250th anniversary. We decided to talk about what we would do if we were in charge. What is a positive vision for this country that we can work toward achieving? Also, if you notice, I have the same last name as somebody you’re fairly familiar with, and Joyce has the same last name as somebody else who happens to be the other guy’s vice president. So I present to you the Trump Vance alternative.

---

Joyce Vance: It’s so nice to have all of you with us this morning.

Mary Trump: Hello, everybody.

Joyce Vance: We are, in fact, the better Trump and Vance, Mary Trump and Joyce Vance. If we were running the country, I dare say it would be a very different place, and hopefully a better place.

We thought we might indulge in a little whimsy this morning and talk about that, although there are obviously serious issues we need to take on too.

Mary Trump: Absolutely.

I think you’re understating it. I don’t think better is actually saying very much because we’re in the ninth circle of hell. The bar is in the molten center of the planet.

It really is the most oddly fortuitous thing that we are Trump and Vance.

Joyce Vance: That’s so weird.

Mary Trump: It’s so weird and unlikely because Trump is not really a very common name.

I guess it would be even weirder if you had the great misfortune of being related to J.D. Vance.

Joyce Vance: We’ve really tried to run away from any connection there, especially since that’s not really J.D. Vance’s name. He’s gone through various incarnations.

Mary Trump: Yes, he has.

I also want to get this out of the way before we move on to the serious stuff. If we were indeed the Trump Vance team running the country, the Knicks would have won in game 3.

Joyce Vance: Absolutely.

Mary Trump: No doubt.

We needed to burn sage after Monday night’s game, and what the Knicks did last night was poetic justice. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen anything like it. They came back from a twenty nine point deficit, and one of the best plays I’ve ever seen in basketball put them one point ahead after erasing that gap. It was extraordinary.

Joyce Vance: It’s the perfect metaphor for where we are as a country.

We’re down by twenty nine, but we’re coming back.

On a serious note, Mary, one change we would make almost immediately is allowing dogs to fly in the passenger cabin of an airplane.

I think this is one of the great injustices in American society. My beautiful German shepherd Bella should be able to have her own seat because dogs are people too.

Mary Trump: I don’t get it.

I think Alaska Airlines used to allow that.

Joyce Vance: They did, but I think they’ve changed.

Andrew Weissman told me his gorgeous dog always flew with him that way, but he recently said they’ve rolled that policy back.

Mary Trump: But why?

If one airline can do it, then clearly there isn’t some FAA regulation preventing it.

That would be one of the first changes we’d implement.

And while we’re at it, people with allergies could simply choose designated non allergy flights.

Joyce Vance: Absolutely.

I always volunteer to sit next to the person with a dog on a flight, even if it means taking a middle seat in the back of the plane, because I’m there to help when the owner gets up. I want to spend time with the dog or the cat. I’m an equal opportunity pet person.

Mary Trump: I love that idea.

Although I’m sadly very allergic to other people’s pets.

Joyce Vance: I’m allergic to my own pets, but it has never stopped us.

In fact, you can probably tell my eyes are red this morning because I slept with a German shepherd on my head last night. I had been away for a couple of weeks, and our puppy Elsa decided she belonged there.

Now, on to a more serious topic.

We had some great questions from everyone after announcing this conversation, and one recurring theme was Donald Trump’s proposed slush fund.

He wants to take $1.776 billion of taxpayer money and create a fund he can spend however he wants. The number is reported as $1.8 billion, but the symbolism matters. It’s 1776, the rallying cry from January 6.

Now the administration says they’ve backed away from it.

But let’s imagine you had that money to spend. If you were President Trump, what would your priorities be?

Mary Trump: First, it’s incredibly important that when we get into office, and I’d be perfectly happy if you were president, we make one thing absolutely clear.

We need to spend that money restoring the physical manifestations of the United States and tearing down everything with Donald’s name on it.

The ballroom comes down. The proposed arch comes down. The reflecting pool, which is already growing algae, gets restored.

Joyce Vance: I was there two weeks ago. It’s awful.

Mary Trump: Exactly.

People might ask whether that’s the best use of our money when there’s so much else to do.

I would say yes, because we have to restore what was damaged before we can build something new that isn’t stained by Donald and his fascist enablers.

But even $1.776 billion won’t be enough.

We also need to take every penny Donald and his children have taken from the American people and use it to restore agencies like USAID.

And we should redirect the nearly quarter trillion dollars handed to ICE and CBP into rebuilding the agencies that have been starved or dismantled to the extraordinary detriment of the American people and people around the world.

Joyce Vance: That’s actually a very concrete legal concept.

As a federal prosecutor, we routinely used criminal asset forfeiture laws to seize ill gotten gains and return those assets for the benefit of victims.

There has to be accountability.

Where crimes have been committed, there should be prosecutions, and restoring stolen assets should be part of that process.

I’m watching what’s happening in Texas, where every day we learn about new problems with cattle, meat supplies, and who knows what else.

The CDC is no longer tracking COVID.

These things seem boring until they become emergencies, but restoring those systems has to be a huge priority.

Mary Trump: I don’t think it’s boring at all.

People should be riveted by just how comprehensive this effort has been to dismantle everything that protects us, improves our lives, and keeps us safe.

We’re also dealing with Ebola, bird flu, and flesh eating parasites attacking cattle.

There was a program monitoring that threat which had successfully protected us since 1966.

It was defunded.

Joyce Vance: Agriculture officials testified yesterday and blamed Joe Biden.

Mary Trump: That’s how you know you’re losing.

More than a year and a half into this administration, if Joe Biden is still your answer, then you no longer have an argument.

Even things that seem minor reveal how gratuitously destructive these policies are.

There were deep ocean monitoring systems that tracked rising sea levels, fish populations, and climate data.

They removed them all.

Why?

Joyce Vance: That one really bothers me.

Climate change is the looming issue.

We’ve effectively lost twelve years of progress.

What’s especially baffling is that taxpayers already paid for this equipment. It existed. It worked. And the administration simply removed it.

If someone wanted to weaken this country, a lot of what’s happening would look exactly like this.

Mary Trump: Because they’re fascist oligarchs who want to create a permanent underclass.

They want to keep us weak, tired, sick, and poor so we’re too busy surviving to notice what’s happening while they enrich themselves.

Some of this is simply proving they can do it.

Some of it is feeding conspiracy theories by pretending climate change doesn’t exist.

And some of it is exactly what it appears to be.

Robert Kennedy is a virulent anti vaccine ideologue who believes he knows better than everyone else.

Donald simply does whatever benefits him and his family financially.

Joyce Vance: That sounds disturbingly similar to the world described in 1984.

Weaken the population until people spend all of their energy surviving instead of resisting.

Our friend Ruth Ben Ghiat would say that’s exactly how authoritarians operate.

Mary Trump: Right.

What’s frustrating is that nobody frames these actions in those terms.

Who benefits? The answer is obvious.

They do.

Joyce Vance: I’ve actually been encouraged by some Democratic leaders recently. They’re staying focused on key issues.

But Republicans in Congress remain complicit.

If we were running the country, how would we deal with that?

Mary Trump: First, people need to keep calling Republican senators because they’ve demonstrated they care more about staying in office than anything else.

If enough constituents pressure them into doing the right thing, great.

But as the executive branch, we would coordinate with Democrats in Congress to hold hearings every single day exposing what has happened.

We would reaffirm that America has three coequal branches of government and that Congress is the first among them.

We would demonstrate that government belongs to the people and that executive power is borrowed from the people, not the other way around.

We need to make the case for good governance and expose every member of Congress who willingly enabled this destruction.

The worst possible outcome would be Republicans pretending someday that it was all just Donald.

No.

They own this too.

Joyce Vance: I agree completely.

I would establish a commission to examine Supreme Court reform, including ethics rules, expansion of the Court, jurisdiction, and term limits. Everything should be on the table.

I also want a president who uses the bully pulpit every single day to explain what democracy is and why it matters. People need to understand that democracy is what makes the lives they enjoy possible.

Mary Trump: Exactly.

We need both short term solutions and long term reforms. We need to educate, motivate, and challenge people to think beyond this moment.

Who do we want to be? What kind of country do we want to build? Those questions transcend partisanship.

At the same time, we need a comprehensive list of reforms that moves us beyond relying on norms and traditions. Those protections must be codified so the American people are never again subjected to this level of corruption, abuse, and institutional destruction.

Joyce Vance: Democrats spend so much time negotiating with themselves. Instead of focusing solely on restoring the country to where it was before Donald Trump, we should be asking what kind of country we could become.

Mary Trump: Exactly.

This is the moment to think big and to act boldly.

When Democrats return to power, they cannot make common cause with the people who created this crisis. Collegiality cannot take precedence over democracy. If Republicans want a seat at the table, they should first demonstrate that they deserve one.

Joyce Vance: One final question.

What role would Bruce Springsteen have in our cabinet?

Mary Trump: Bruce has been speaking truth to power for a very long time.

Someone suggested creating a cabinet position dedicated to fixing everything, which is actually a wonderful idea. But I think Bruce would make an outstanding Secretary of the Arts, leading the effort to restore creativity, culture, and public investment in the arts to their rightful place in American life.

Joyce Vance: That would be a perfect response to putting Donald Trump’s name on the Kennedy Center. Imagine a federal government that is once again committed to supporting artists and investing in culture.

Mary Trump: I couldn’t agree more.

Joyce Vance: Mary, thank you for making time to do this today. Please give Ronda my love, and happy anniversary.

This week also marks the fourth anniversary of Civil Discourse, which still amazes me. I only started this Substack because of you and Eugene. I still remember sitting in your apartment when the two of you encouraged me to take the leap.

Mary Trump: I remember it like it was four years ago.

Joyce Vance: Thank you all for joining us. It’s always wonderful to spend this time together, and I hope conversations like this remind everyone that imagining a better future is the first step toward building one.

Love you, Mary.

Mary Trump: Love you too, Joyce.

And thank you to everyone for spending part of your day with us. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a moment to like and share the video. If you haven’t already, subscribe to the Mary Trump Media channel so you never miss an episode. Every conversation, every share, and every new subscriber helps us continue building a community that believes democracy, accountability, and compassion are always worth fighting for.