The Democrats Have a Mandate

They must use it

[Transcript edited for clarity, flow and length]

Mary Trump: The Democratic Party has an unprecedented mandate in the history of this country. So I think, at the very least, we can demand that they walk and chew gum at the same time. That is one of the many fascinating things Steven Beschloss and I discuss in this conversation.

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Steven Beschloss: The success for the Democrats and the defeat of Donald Trump’s Republican Party has been felt everywhere in America. So Mary, how are you feeling?

Mary Trump: Steven, it is so great to be here with you under these circumstances. I have to be honest. I was very optimistic going into Tuesday, but it still felt really theoretical. It also came in the context of very real concerns that the Republican Party and the Trump regime were going to try to do something on election day. I was very worried about ICE showing up at the polls. I was worried about potential voter intimidation leading to violence. And of course, there is the ridiculous 61 day period we have to worry about as well. Even though I was pretty confident the Democrats were going to win, the House certainly and likely the Senate, it did not feel real. Then, as Tuesday night unfolded, I have never experienced anything like this in my lifetime. When I went outside yesterday, after we knew that the Democrats were going to have 250 plus seats in the House, potentially 56 but at a bare minimum 53 plus Fetterman seats in the Senate, it felt like I was walking into a new world.

Steven Beschloss: It feels seismic, and it is a mandate the likes of which I have never seen. And the processing of it, maybe we should talk about it for a moment psychologically. It is disorienting. We have been pushing a boulder like Sisyphus up the mountain for years, without a day off, and always with a feeling that if you let up, it is going to crush you. And then here we are thinking, maybe there actually is a moment to breathe.

Mary Trump: It is very easy in the moment not to recognize the toll it is taking, but we have been under all sorts of pressure from all sides for years now. For over a decade, we have been held hostage, even during the four Biden years, because of how that all played out after January 6. So it is very hard to describe what this is, because it is not just a victory. It is a real, palpable opportunity for the kinds of change this country has always been capable of but never accomplished. You used the word repudiation, and I think that is really important. Democrats won, absolutely. This was a positive pro democracy victory, but it was also a repudiation, and we need to keep that in mind going forward. It is not enough to say, “Well, we won, so we are going to do all of these great things,” which we should do. The American people made it clear to us what they are demanding.

Steven Beschloss: I do want to get to that, because there are questions about the nature of democratic leadership and how they are or are not going to address exactly the issues around accountability. But let’s linger in the beautiful place of high quality candidates who actually won. The governing that we are about to witness is made up of really good people who are there to try to make lives better for people. There is a diversity of people in all kinds of ways, both in terms of life experience and demographics. So if you look at the full cascade of candidates who have won, who particularly touches you?

Mary Trump: There are so many. You mentioned a few just in terms of first, Deb Haaland, first Native American governor, Peggy Flanagan, first Native American senator, Abdul El-Sayed, first Muslim senator, on and on and on. It is extraordinary. To see that we now, or increasingly, have leaders who actually look like America, that is so heartening. But the specific races that I was paying attention to were the Amy Acton race in Ohio against the vile Vivek Ramaswamy, who ran the most despicable, inhumane political ad I have ever seen in my life. I remember the Max Cleland ad, so that is saying something. And Abdul El-Sayed in Michigan. I think those drew a line in the sand that Americans were clearly not willing to cross, because they knew that a vote for their opponents, Ramaswamy and Rogers, would make them complicit in the cruelty and the bigotry.

An honorable mention also goes to Angie Nixon, who did not win in Florida for the Senate race. However, that was because she did not have enough support from the DNC and the DSCC. She ran an extraordinary campaign. She has incredible political talent, and she narrowed the margin by about 17 points by being her authentic self and really understanding what people need in their leaders. Florida at this point is just an outlier, because it was very difficult for Democrats to win statewide. But because of her and because of Dave Jolly, a lot of Democrats in down ballot races outperformed. So again, how do you choose? There is such an embarrassment of riches.

Steven Beschloss: I would add to the mix Keisha Lance Bottoms winning in Georgia. I have been researching the 1860s, and I am reminded about Georgia and the Confederacy, and all the efforts that were underway to try to end Black suffrage even after the Emancipation Proclamation and the official end of slavery. Obviously, a century and a half later, we are still dealing with the fallout of that. But to have the first Black female governor in the country in Georgia is a beautiful thing.

Mary Trump: It is. And just quickly, if Scott Colom wins, he would also be on the list, and it is looking good.

Steven Beschloss: So the third question. Donald was quick to say he would accept the results of the election, which surprised me, coming from the guy who has been plotting and pursuing all kinds of sabotage before the election, during the election, and after the election. How do you explain this? And are you worried that in these next two months he will still make havoc between now and January, when the new Democratic House and Senate take over?

Mary Trump: I am much less worried than I was, that is for sure. I think Donald saying that was strategic, because as diminished as he is, he still has those lizard brain instincts. He knows the numbers are so vast against him, the Trump regime, and Republicans that there is no calling up Brad Raffensperger and saying, “Hey, can you find me 20 or 30 million votes?” It is untenable. He also probably wants to get ahead of all of the investigations that are coming his way, and if he plays nice, maybe Democrats will back off. Also, because he is so diminished, it is pretty clear that Republicans have gotten the memo that this is not somebody they can continue to prop up. He lost this election for them in certain ways by picking the candidates he picked and getting rid of viable candidates like Cornyn. But just to see him dithering around after the election, talking about marble or whatever he is obsessed with.

Steven Beschloss: Yes, 25 minutes about the ballroom. That is his utter focus for the first minutes after the results of the election.

Mary Trump: And it is so obvious that this is not somebody capable of pulling it together. I just do not think anybody is going to follow him anymore, because he would only be leading them off yet another cliff.

Steven Beschloss: So was the half hour talking about the ballroom something that translates into somebody who is in this bubble and self soothing? For me, the question is whether we are going to see accelerating cognitive decline now, and whether Tuesday’s outcome and the fallout of that exacerbate his mental decline.

Mary Trump: We cannot overestimate the negative impact this is going to have on him. We have seen in the last few months just how rapid his decline is. The only reason it has not reached a level where he is incapable of functioning is that he is so protected by other people, and he is very good at protecting himself at a deep psychological level, through self soothing. But part of it is also that he is not discussed in ways that make it clear just how incapable he is of doing the job. If you listen to any extended remarks he has given since getting back to the Oval Office, the man is deeply unwell. It is just that corporate media says, “Well, that is just Donald being Donald. Donald is all baked in.” And the Republican Party continues to say, “Whatever Donald wants, Donald gets. He is our guy.” I think all of that is coming to an end, but the biggest thing that is going to have an impact on him is this loss. He can say all he wants about it.

I wasn’t on the ballot. If I’d been on the ballot, we would’ve won on a landslide.

That isn’t true. For months now, he has been telling his voters to pretend he is on the ballot, and we all did, and this is what happened.

Steven Beschloss: This notion of narcissistic collapse is what I am watching for, the point at which he cannot detach himself from the reality of a serious, penetrating loss. It was interesting that he so quickly responded by saying, “Well, if I was on the ballot, it would’ve been a landslide.” The same person who says, “Just pretend that I am on the ballot.”

So let’s move to the larger dynamic at play politically. Hakeem Jeffries served up a worrying, cautious response about an accountability agenda. He emphasized that this will not be about “getting even,” that the task is about “getting things done,” as if the serving of justice and the confronting of corruption are not critical. I was pleased to see Robert Garcia will take over House Oversight, and he posted two words: “lawyer up.” Ron Wyden, who will likely have Senate Finance, posted one word: “subpoenas.” How tough and how ruthless should the Democrats be? Who should be their key targets? And by the way, who ought to be their leadership?

Mary Trump: I think Hakeem Jeffries has disqualified himself, and that happened months ago when he met with Jared Kushner, as if Jared Kushner should have been part of this conversation other than to say, “When is he going to prison?” Then Kushner kept leaking that meeting, putting Jeffries on the defensive, and then he basically said, “No, no, no. We are going to be all about accountability.” Why are you meeting with a man who is not even part of this government to immunize him? It was one of the biggest blunders I have seen, and he did not have a good response. Now he is acting as if demanding accountability is akin to some kind of mob retribution. Accountability is not getting even. If somebody robs your house and you go to the police station to demand that the person who robbed you gets arrested and then potentially tried, is that getting even, or is that getting justice?

The American people want justice. Clearly, Hakeem Jeffries is not cut out for this at all. He, much like Merrick Garland, is the wrong man at the wrong time. It seems like he is not even talking to his caucus, because many other Democratic members of Congress are absolutely leading with accountability. So I really hope somebody challenges Jeffries. His speakership feels almost inevitable.

Steven Beschloss: I have to hope that the level of pushback will actually lead him to recognize that he has a job to do here.

Mary Trump: I think, by the scores, Democrats in his caucus need to say, “I’ll vote for you on one condition.” I think Schumer absolutely has to go. Chris Van Hollen has been talking tough, and I would love for Senator Van Hollen to put his hat in the ring.

Steven Beschloss: He just said that he is reluctant to do it because he is weighing the possibilities of 2028.

Mary Trump: Steven, I am glad you said that, because I have seen people saying, “It is time to focus on 2028.” No, it is not. We have so much to do right now, and there are almost two years.

Steven Beschloss: Let’s not talk about who we think the key candidates for 2028 are, shall we? Let’s focus exactly where we are.

Mary Trump: Yes. If you want to run for president, that is your choice, but that does not mean you cannot do this other, even more important thing right now.

Steven Beschloss: So again, how ruthless should the Democrats be? To me, that looks like investigations, hearings, and prosecutions need to happen up and down the Trump regime. Robert Garcia was talking about the Trump crime family. That was the specific language he used when talking about the need to lawyer up. So where do you think the focus should be?

Mary Trump: I think they need to cast a wide net. No holds barred, no pulling punches, put on your metaphorical brass knuckles, and get prepared. I see that they are already starting to hire investigators, and I have talked to enough people in Congress, and people who are now going to be in Congress, who said that they are prepared for all contingencies and all eventualities. There is no reason to do what Jack Smith did and just indict Donald, or what Merrick Garland did. Just go after the foot soldiers. No. Because we do have to prioritize, we have two different buckets. We have people in office, cabinet members, et cetera, and then we have family and the inner circle. If you needed to start with just one person, it would be Pete Hegseth. He is a war criminal, and he needs to be painted as such. And Jared Kushner.

Donnie and Eric are terrible too, but Jared Kushner is a traitor. He is a foreign agent, and all of that needs to be exposed. But there are so many. It is the diametric opposite of the embarrassment of riches we have with amazing new governors and senators.

Steven Beschloss: As long as we are using metaphors here.

Mary Trump: Exactly. So I say, investigate all of them, basically.

Steven Beschloss: We have time. Let’s emphasize the two top issues that came out of the day of voting: corruption in government and affordability. The conversation and the action need to focus not on one of those but on both. We have been watching retribution and vengeance as the driving force for the prosecutions we have seen over the last two years, but now it is an opportunity to say that prosecutions and investigations are actually about justice.

Mary Trump: Absolutely. And it is insulting to suggest that we cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. Democrats can do more than one thing at a time. I understand there is a lot of rebuilding, reimagining, and stemming the bleeding. There is a lot to do, a lot to undo, and a lot to create. However, we are way past the time of saying we have to look forward, not back. Accountability works both ways.

We cannot get where we need to go unless there is real accountability. You could argue that if Nixon had gone to prison, we would not have gotten Donald Trump. So let’s get this right, and recognize the massive trust the American people have put in the Democrats. Stop pretending that we just need to talk about affordability. Yes, that is incredibly important, because people cannot afford to put gas in their cars or food on their tables. However, why let the guys who created these circumstances off the hook while they enrich themselves? And let’s get Elon Musk in there as well.

Steven Beschloss: Yes, please. I just want to add an extra note about accountability. You can look throughout American history, and I am doing that right now for a book I am working on, going back to the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, the pardon of Nixon, and so forth. Again and again, American leaders made a decision to just move on, believing that would be the way to heal the country. Now I think there is absolutely no way to heal the country and go forward if we do not deal with what has happened, because the effort is the effort of traitors in my view, whether you end up calling it treason or another kind of crime. If you do not do it, that cancer will continue to metastasize through a system that is already very broken.

Mary Trump: That is so important, because the Democrats will squander this massive advantage they have, and we will end up right back where we were if they do not get this right. If they ignore what just happened by pretending that being a traitor is not enough of a reason to investigate you, that sends a really terrible message.

Steven Beschloss: So the sixth question. How transformational can these two years be? Can this be a seismic moment for the ascendancy of progressive issues? I am thinking about Medicare for All. I am also thinking about nationalizing Musk’s Starlink and SpaceX. Or do you expect this will really just be more about checking Donald’s power?

Mary Trump: It has to be both. He needs to be completely reined in and contained to the extent that is possible. There are a lot of things Democrats cannot yet do because they do not have the executive branch, but they can do all sorts of things with budgeting. They can stop the judicial nominees who are destroying our rule of law. They can make sure that we get out of this illegal war of choice against Iran and that we finally become the kind of ally Ukraine has always needed us to be. Even for the things we cannot do, Democrats need to start making the argument for why these things are necessary. They need to start laying the groundwork in the event we get a Democratic president in 2028. Part of that is about communication, and part of it is telling a story about why this election can lead to all of those things that can be transformational for this country. The kinds of people we now have coming into office, not just in DC but in practically every state, seem to understand that in a way that is really refreshing. We need more people like that coming in during 2028 as well.

Steven Beschloss: Do you think the Epstein files will now actually be revealed in a way they have not been? Now we are going to see the kind of hearings and exposure that has not happened to this point.

Mary Trump: That is necessary, because very recently a woman came out with very credible and alarming accusations against Donald, and nothing happened. It was not picked up. Releasing the Epstein files, having serious investigations, and holding hearings will force corporate legacy media to start paying attention to these things, because the reaction on the right will be vehement. And if nothing else, it is another accountability issue. Is it okay that potentially we have people in our government who committed horrible crimes? Can we not please start talking about this in an open and serious way?

Steven Beschloss: In the broader sense, we are talking about the Epstein class. I hope we are starting a process of recognizing that oligarchy, a finite number of the rich and powerful deciding the fate of our nation and our morals, is an extremely dangerous thing for a democracy. We have been shown how bad it is for the country. Now that needs to change.

Mary Trump: Absolutely. And to that point, the conversation should also broaden out to campaign finance. One man had so much money that he dropped almost $500 million in the midterms. Thankfully, it had no impact whatsoever. What he did was set $500 million on fire, so that needs to stop happening. What is even worse is that what Musk put into the midterms would be, if you had $100, the equivalent of a nickel. He is not even going to feel the loss of that money, and just imagine what good could have been done with it. There are all sorts of issues that radiate out from allowing the Epstein class to get away scot free and continue to accrue so much power and wealth, and campaign finance is part of that discussion.

Steven Beschloss: And by the way, how about a return to a Congress that actually recognizes that the power of the purse is in its control, that it is an independent and coequal branch of government, and that it should start acting like one.

Mary Trump: I believe we do not have a right to be surprised anymore about what Donald and the Republicans do, but it should shock us that a branch of government willingly ceded its constitutional powers to empower one person. It is just mind blowing. I am pretty sure the Democrats are going to claw that power back on day one.

Steven Beschloss: I want to linger on the nationalizing of Starlink and maybe also SpaceX, recognizing that these are national security issues. Donald and Elon made that clear when they cut back on the communication systems that allowed the Ukrainian military to fend off drone attacks. We do not want a trillionaire private citizen making life and death decisions for foreign countries.

Mary Trump: It is certifiably insane that one person can have that kind of power. Ukraine does not have access to vitally important information, and a bunch of Ukrainians are going to get killed because Elon Musk is in a bad temper. It is horrifying. The Epstein tech oligarch class is made up of terrible people. They have no moral compass. They do not believe in empathy, and yet they somehow think they are the ones who should decide how we are governed. Nationalizing Starlink is a really good start. Elon Musk’s federal contracts also need to be canceled immediately, and there needs to be a real investigation into what he and the others, like Peter Thiel and Mark Andreessen, have been up to under the cover of Donald just letting them do whatever they want.

Steven Beschloss: $500 million is a drop in the bucket for a trillionaire. That money may have been spent because there were candidates he wanted, but it was as much an attempt to create an insurance policy that he would not be investigated.

Let’s call this a bonus question. When we talked a few months back, we discussed how there seems to be no psychological bottom with this person, and you used the phrase that his instinct is to burn it all down. Do we still need to worry that he is going to burn it all down?

Mary Trump: Yes, we do, just not to the same degree. He seems so depleted and doddering. The guy still has the nuclear codes, but he seems to be obsessing right now on things that are soothing him. His redecorating DC, or whatever he is up to, and talking a lot about things he is making up out of whole cloth. It is quite remarkable. Even if he starts to take in the unfathomable loss he suffered on Tuesday, and this will certainly ramp up when Democrats start issuing subpoenas, I think people, even in his inner circle, are going to be increasingly less likely to listen to him anymore. We have already seen it. Ron DeSantis threw him under the bus. JD Vance is throwing him under the bus. I think we are going to see more of that as the extent of this extinction level event comes even more sharply into focus.

Steven Beschloss: The fear of saying something has been seriously depleted.

Mary Trump: And that is just going to cascade. It will snowball in a way the likes of which we have never seen before.

Steven Beschloss: So I do not want to linger in what could be seen as a dark place. Let’s finish in a happy place, with the extraordinary achievement of this week. I think I posted earlier this morning four words about the midterms: power to the people. This is an event that was achieved by the American people deciding, showing, and proving that they think enough is enough. In my lifetime, that is a particularly glorious achievement. I have gotten some people sending me texts saying, “Congratulations, and thank you for your hard work.” So I want to say to you, in this format, congratulations and thank you for all of your hard work, because so much of this work is about telling the story and raising people’s awareness of what is at stake. It seems like all across America, people finally got the message.

Mary Trump: Steven, thank you. It has absolutely been a team effort. You have been hammering away at this for a long time, and a lot of others have been as well. What we have shown is that the corporate media approach to this does not work. There has always been this sense in corporate media that there is an inevitability to Donald and his policies, and that this is just the way it is. We proved them so wrong. I am really proud of America right now. This is the most glorious election I have ever experienced in my lifetime, and I think it is due in large part to those independent voices who kept plugging away, never gave up, and told the stories that need to be told but are not being told by media corporations with much bigger platforms than ours. It is really heartening to see that people get it, because we have been told for so long that they never will or that they just do not care. That is clearly not the case.

Steven Beschloss: So this is a happy time, but the work continues. We have to keep hammering away. I will say to everyone listening, please make a point of checking out Mary Trump in all the places you can find her. Please subscribe to America America. Please keep paying attention to independent media and independent voices who are doing what they can to frame the reality we are dealing with in the most honest and vivid way. That remains job number one.

Thank you, Mary. Thank you for all you are doing, and I am looking forward to doing this again.

Mary Trump: Thank you, Steven. This was wonderful, and congratulations, America. Please let us know what you think in the comments. Your voice is an important part of the conversation. Thanks for joining us.

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