The World Is Watching America
In Conversation with Mary Trump, Joyce vance and Katie Phang
[Transcript edited for clarity, flow and length]
Mary Trump: Hello, everybody!
Guess what? It’s Joyce Vance’s birthday, and I got to help her celebrate by joining her and Katie Phang. Those are two fierce, brilliant women to spend time with on a Substack Live.
So here’s that conversation. Enjoy.
Joyce Vance: Welcome to everybody who’s joining us. It’s Mary, Katie, and me just chatting this morning. We may do nothing but chat, but I’d also love to take your questions from the comments. This is very informal, and there is certainly no shortage of news.
Katie was just mentioning that a modeling scout in Paris has died. Katie, is that right?
Katie Phang: Yes. His body was found in his Paris home. Authorities are investigating the cause of death. Initially, it was reported as cardiac arrest, but they are conducting an autopsy because they are not certain.
He was the primary modeling scout, I’ll put that in quotation marks, for Jeffrey Epstein, Jean Luc Brunel, and Gérald Marie, who headed Elite Model Management. That is far too much of a coincidence, considering he worked with all three of those men, if not additional sexual predators.
Part of what I’ve been focused on lately is emphasizing that this international sex trafficking operation gained legitimacy and cover through the modeling industry. We know about the Victoria’s Secret connection through Les Wexner, and we know they transported young girls across international borders and state lines under the guise of modeling.
It’s shocking because just last week I was in a French court during the filing of new complaints from victims of Gérald Marie. The goal is to have an investigating judge appointed. Unlike our system, France has an investigating magistrate who has remarkable authority. It’s almost like having a police officer, a lawyer, and a judge all rolled into one.
The objective is to connect all of these cases and ultimately get to Ghislaine Maxwell because, at this point, she is the only person still alive, other than Gérald Marie, who is reportedly hiding out in Ibiza. The hope is to expose the broader operation because it is such a farce that the Trump Department of Justice refuses to do its job.
European authorities have moved slowly, but at least they are doing something. The only people ever prosecuted have been Epstein and Maxwell, even though we know there were many more people involved.
It is frustrating, and more than a little strange, that only four days after these new victims came forward and those complaints were filed, someone directly connected to the case is suddenly found dead.
I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but it certainly is odd.
Joyce Vance: It’s more than odd. We used to say there is no such thing as coincidence in law enforcement, and I doubt this is a coincidence.
I was especially struck during Todd Blanche’s confirmation testimony last week when he claimed there was no evidence that any of the girls or women had been trafficked to anyone beyond Jeffrey Epstein. My immediate reaction was, “Have you looked at the evidence? Have you spoken to your prosecutors?” Because it is abundantly clear that this story is not going away.
When Todd Blanche was confirmed as Deputy Attorney General last year, Jeffrey Epstein was not mentioned once in his written responses to the Senate’s questions for the record. This time, Jeffrey Epstein’s name appears 216 times. This issue is not going anywhere.
Mary Trump: Exactly. When you’re engaged in a massive cover up, you lose all credibility. Nobody is willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.
And it isn’t just Epstein. Look at what the Trump administration did to help secure the release of Andrew Tate and Tristan Tate from Romania because they’re fans of Donald Trump.
These are people who have been at the forefront of the toxic masculinity movement. They are hardcore misogynists, and many of the people in that orbit have been accused of being pedophiles, rapists, and sex traffickers.
No, this story is not going away, and it shouldn’t. It should remain in the public eye until these victims finally receive answers.
Joyce Vance: Speaking of coincidences, my husband just brought me birthday chocolate.
Look at this. My favorite all natural dark chocolate pecans from Wilbur’s of Maine. What a wonderful husband.
Mary Trump: All right, everybody. Joyce is getting these amazing chocolates because today is her birthday. Happy Birthday!
Joyce Vance: Thank you. I really appreciate that. Thank you both for being here with me today, and thank you to everyone joining us on my birthday.
I noticed someone in the comments mentioning that the Tate brothers are supposedly friends with Barron Trump. I’m cautious about repeating that because much of that reporting comes from someone who claims to have influence with Barron Trump and says they have participated in calls together. Take that for whatever it’s worth.
Donald Trump Jr. has certainly had interactions with the Tates, and Rick Grenell was involved in helping facilitate their release from Romania while they were still under investigation for sex crimes, allowing them to travel to the United States. Ironically, they were later arrested in Katie’s neck of the woods, in South Florida, on British extradition warrants.
That also highlights an important difference between criminal justice systems. Katie talked earlier about how the French investigative system differs from ours, but the British system is different as well.
I once prosecuted a child exploitation case involving a defendant who happened to be in London. I was genuinely impressed by how quickly British authorities were able to arrest him and by how long they were legally permitted to hold him during the investigation. That turned out to be extremely valuable in building the case.
So I am very grateful for our colleagues in British law enforcement.
Mary Trump: Absolutely.
Joyce Vance: If there’s anything you’d like us to discuss, please put it in the comments. We’ll keep an eye on them.
And thank you to the person who said I don’t look a day over thirty. I am, in fact, somewhat older than thirty. Quite a bit older than thirty, but I appreciate the compliment.
Katie Phang: Joyce, you absolutely deserve the gold medal for looking the youngest on your birthday. One hundred percent.
Joyce Vance: Well, makeup certainly helps, but good genes help too.
Mary Trump: And living where you do probably doesn’t hurt, either.
Katie Phang: Absolutely. Being somewhere peaceful really matters. You’re often a product of your environment. If you can find even a small pocket of peace somewhere, hold onto it.
We’re constantly overwhelmed by the news. It never stops anymore, not even on weekends. If you can find something that gives you even a brief moment of peace, embrace it.
For me, that’s stopping to pet dogs on the street.
Joyce Vance: I love being with you when you do that because you really do stop and pet every dog.
Katie Phang: I do. Then I feel like I’m carrying that dog’s scent with me to the next dog.
I recently read something on Instagram that’s been driving my husband Jonathan crazy because I keep repeating it. It said you should let your dog spend as much time as it wants sniffing during walks. Apparently, ten minutes of sniffing provides as much mental stimulation as thirty minutes of running.
The post explained that dogs are reading and sending what it called “pee mail.” So now every time I see a dog taking a long time during a walk, I turn to Jonathan and say, “That dog is writing a very long pee mail.”
Mary Trump: I actually learned that while walking Henry, Norm Ornstein’s dog, in Washington. Norm takes Henry on very long walks and lets him stop as often as he wants.
Dogs receive an incredible amount of information through their noses. It provides tremendous intellectual stimulation.
If you have a dog, let them take their time during walks. It really is good for them.
Joyce Vance: I’m not entirely convinced my dogs are intellectually stimulated. Most of the time they’re just thinking, “Oh look, food. Oh look, more food.”
Katie Phang: Your dogs get to spend time with the chickens and the cats. They have an entire social circle.
My dog is an only dog, although I’m actively trying to increase our dog population.
Joyce Vance: Jonathan needs a German Shepherd.
Katie Phang: He absolutely wants one.
Since my dog is by himself, I make sure he gets plenty of time at the park with other dogs. And I always let him spend as much time as he needs reading and sending his pee mail.
Joyce Vance: German Shepherds are like living with Secret Service agents. They’re constantly on guard. They’re always watching, always alert, always barking if something seems even slightly out of place, even a leaf falling from a tree.
But I will admit, I always feel protected.
Mary Trump: I recently met a long haired German Shepherd, and he was the sweetest dog imaginable.
Joyce Vance: Our German Shepherd sheds enough already, but the long haired ones really are beautiful.
I actually need to buy a truck. I had been researching Silverados because the truck bed would comfortably fit two dogs. When I mentioned that to my husband, Bob, he immediately asked, “Will it fit three dogs?”
So now I have very high hopes for my birthday. Maybe a long haired German Shepherd is in my future.
Mary Trump: You two are unstoppable.
Joyce Vance: Usually, stray dogs just show up at our house, so we never have to put much thought into getting another one. We haven’t had a stray dog arrive in quite a while, though, so I feel like we’re overdue. At the very least, it would be nice to foster a rescue for a while.
Mary Trump: Foster or foster fail?
Katie Phang: I’m looking at the comments, and people are asking why we’re not talking about more serious topics.
Joyce Vance: All right. Let’s talk about serious topics.
Mary Trump: I have a question.
Is there even a legislative branch of government anymore?
Katie Phang: Where’s Mitch McConnell? He’d probably be the only one who could answer that question, Mary. Unfortunately, his own staff can’t even seem to confirm that they’ve actually spoken with him, so I don’t think you’re going to get an answer as to whether we still have a functioning legislature.
Joyce Vance: Can we talk for a minute about how unbelievable it is that we watched the leader of the Republican Party in the Senate reportedly leave in an ambulance, then saw a photograph that many people have questioned as possibly being AI generated, and then... nothing?
Instead of his staff coming forward with proof of life, a video, or even a brief message from Mitch McConnell himself, they’ve remained completely silent. That certainly doesn’t inspire confidence.
There is an important context here. If he is no longer capable of serving, there are procedures in place to replace him. Instead, it appears they’re simply trying to run out the clock and avoid addressing the issue altogether.
I think Governor Andy Beshear is beginning to force that conversation. I spoke with one of my former U.S. Attorney colleagues in Kentucky, and he said there is absolutely no certainty within the state that their senator is actually able to perform his duties.
Mary Trump: None.
It’s an extraordinary cover up. It’s deeply cynical, and it absolutely looks like an attempt to run out the clock.
Here’s the thing, though. Andy Beshear almost certainly wants to run for president one day. He needs to step up here and force the issue.
If what the legislature is doing is likely unlawful, then make the Republicans defend it. Tell them, “I need to meet with Mitch McConnell by tomorrow. If that doesn’t happen, then I have to conclude he cannot fulfill his responsibilities, and I will appoint a replacement.”
Then let the Republicans scramble. Make them sue you. Put them on defense.
Joyce Vance: Exactly. Let them take it to court. Force them to defend what they’re doing.
Mary Trump: I completely agree.
Katie Phang: I think Mitch McConnell is physically alive. I’m not convinced he’s mentally capable of serving.
That’s why we’ve only seen a written proof of life letter. We’ve seen what some people believe is an AI generated photograph with Elaine Chao. His staff refuses to tell reporters whether they’ve actually seen him or spoken with him.
Scott Jennings says he has, but I don’t find that persuasive.
Mary Trump: Well, I could say I talked to Mitch for twenty minutes too.
Joyce Vance: Exactly. That entire morning was just bizarre. Then... nothing.
If Mitch McConnell were improving, Scott Jennings would probably be doing interviews talking about their latest conversation. Why haven’t we seen anything?
Katie Phang: Exactly. Where’s the video?
Why can’t he simply record thirty seconds saying, “Hello, everyone. I’ve been sick. I’m recovering. Thank you for your concern.”
Even if he were physically limited, people would understand. Instead, we have absolutely nothing.
If I were Governor Beshear, I would personally go to the medical facility. I’d say, “As Governor of Kentucky, I’m here to check on the wellbeing of one of my citizens.”
More importantly, because he represents the people of Kentucky in the United States Senate, I need to determine whether those constituents are receiving competent representation.
The political fallout from doing that would be far worse for Mitch McConnell and the Republican Party than it would be for Governor Beshear. That’s exactly what I would do.
Joyce Vance: Beyond McConnell, can we talk about the latest insanity involving Steve Scalise and his comparison between voting and showing identification at Olive Garden?
Did either of you see that? Apparently, people have to show identification at Olive Garden.
Has Steve Scalise actually ever been to an Olive Garden? I have four children. I’ve certainly been to Olive Garden.
Mary Trump: Well, if you go to Olive Garden looking as young as Joyce does and you order a glass of wine, then yes, they’ll probably ask for identification.
That is not remotely the same thing as voting. These are entirely different issues.
Scalise has also started calling Democrats Bolsheviks and communists. It’s beginning to feel like we’ve been transported back to the 1950s. I’m waiting for the House Un American Activities Committee hearings to begin again.
Steve Scalise seems determined to become the next Joe McCarthy.
I think it demonstrates just how desperate Republicans are. Donald Trump wants them to pass the SAVE Act, and they know that if they fail, November could become a political bloodbath for them.
Joyce Vance: That’s exactly where all of this is headed.
Katie made an important point earlier about finding moments that help restore your balance. The reason that’s so important is because we’re about to begin a sprint that lasts all the way through the midterm elections.
Mary Trump: That’s true.
Joyce Vance: Katie, you’ve been in Paris. What’s the reaction there to everything happening in the United States? Do people talk about it? I know your French is pretty good.
Katie Phang: They think we’re crazy. What’s really changed is that there is now a genuine lack of respect for the United States. They honestly think we’ve lost our minds.
What is remarkable, though, is that the French have more respect for the institution of democracy than many Americans or, more specifically, than Donald Trump, MAGA, and today’s Republican Party. Europeans, especially the French, understand what it was like to barely survive the march of fascism. They understand just how fragile democracy is because they’ve lived through that history, and they never want to repeat it.
Now, let me be clear. I think allowing Marine Le Pen the opportunity to run again is a mistake. No country is perfect. Every nation has political struggles involving its parliament, its prime ministers, and its presidents. But there is a genuine respect for history and for the sacrifices that were made to preserve democracy.
The ignorance being displayed by the United States right now is impossible to ignore on the global stage. That’s why I think it’s important for Americans to understand the international context. It’s also why conversations with people like Dr. Kim Lane Scheppele are so valuable. Understanding what happened in Hungary helps us understand what is happening here.
I also think about South Korea, where a president declared martial law for eight minutes and was immediately impeached, convicted, and sentenced to life in prison. Prosecutors even sought the death penalty. Meanwhile, in our country, someone who attempted to overturn an election was returned to the Oval Office.
The same is true in Brazil, where Jair Bolsonaro and many of those who helped him have faced prosecution. Yet here in the United States, our own Department of Justice and FBI are not investigating what may be one of the largest international sex trafficking operations in modern history. Other countries continue to pursue these investigations while we refuse to do so.
It really demonstrates a kind of American exceptionalism—but not the kind we should be proud of.
Joyce Vance: Who leads the Department of Justice truly matters. When you vote for a president, you’re also choosing the person who will appoint the Attorney General. If you have an Attorney General who cares about justice, then allegations like those surrounding Jeffrey Epstein receive serious investigation. If you don’t, they don’t.
Mary, what are you seeing from your perspective?
Mary Trump: I think there was a time when people outside the United States could separate ordinary Americans from what our government was doing. They understood that many of us opposed these policies and weren’t blaming every American for them.
But the longer this continues, and the longer Republicans refuse to use the constitutional authority they already possess to rein in the executive branch, the harder that distinction becomes to maintain.
To Katie’s point, Europeans understand the danger of fascism because they’ve lived through it. If Americans had a better understanding of that history, we’d recognize the tragic irony that the country which once fought fascism now finds itself embracing many of its characteristics.
Europeans also understand how essential the United States has been in protecting democratic nations from future authoritarian movements. Every European country still has a dangerous far-right movement. Katie mentioned Marine Le Pen, but we also see similar movements in Germany, the United Kingdom, and elsewhere.
They need America to stand as a democratic leader opposing those forces. Instead, we increasingly appear to be aligning ourselves with them.
When you combine America’s retreat from democratic leadership abroad with the failure of our own Attorney General to uphold the rule of law at home, it’s an incredibly dangerous combination.
Joyce Vance: That’s something I’ve been thinking about as well, especially when Steve Scalise uses terms like “Bolshevik.”
I don’t think that’s accidental. I think they’re deeply concerned about being accurately labeled as fascists because if you look at immigration policy and so many of this administration’s actions, that description fits.
So what do they do? They reach back into history and dust off another scary word. “What’s worse than fascist? Bolshevik.”
It’s classic bumper-sticker politics. Most people don’t even know what the word means anymore, but they recognize it as something that’s supposed to sound dangerous.
If you have low-information voters, they hear “communist” or “Bolshevik” instead of focusing on whether the administration itself is embracing authoritarian tactics.
I think we need to pay close attention because Republicans have become extremely effective at this kind of simplistic messaging.
Katie Phang: It’s almost like they all got the same memo: start using the word “communism” everywhere.
The irony, of course, is that the American political figure who is closest to Vladimir Putin is Donald Trump.
When I talked about Lindsey Graham’s replacement on my show, I pointed out that Darlene Nordeen—I’m intentionally not calling her Darlene Graham because that’s not her name—was selected by Donald Trump to serve out Lindsey Graham’s Senate term.
During an interview with Sean Hannity, she proudly described meeting Donald Trump and told him that she was known for being loyal. Hannity even joked that Trump probably liked that part the most.
If she’s going to continue Lindsey Graham’s legacy, I’m curious how she’ll approach issues like Ukraine. Lindsey Graham had just returned from meeting with President Zelenskyy before his death, where support for Ukraine against Russia was a major topic.
Meanwhile, Republicans accuse everyone else of being communists and socialists while the person occupying the Oval Office consistently demonstrates admiration for Vladimir Putin.
We shouldn’t allow Steve Scalise or anyone else to throw around those coded terms without pushing back. We should immediately point out the hypocrisy. If anyone is advancing Vladimir Putin’s interests, it’s Donald Trump.
That’s why media literacy matters so much. People need to understand what these political messages are actually doing.
Mary Trump: That’s exactly what I wanted to ask Joyce about because we’re constantly dealing with multiple crises at once.
Republicans accuse Democrats of doing precisely what they’re doing. Donald has built an entire political career on projection.
In addition to helping people understand what words like “communism,” “socialism,” and “fascism” actually mean, I also think we need to point out Republican hypocrisy much more directly.
Take DEI. Republicans attack Democrats over diversity initiatives while simultaneously embracing blatant nepotism. Donald Trump’s appointments repeatedly demonstrate that loyalty matters far more than qualifications.
Do you think Democrats need to become much more aggressive in highlighting those contradictions?
Joyce Vance: I do.
I’ve probably been less critical of Democratic leadership than either of you because my experience at the Department of Justice taught me how difficult it is to create a consistent message across a broad coalition.
But we absolutely have to do better.
Republicans have handed Democrats an extraordinary opportunity. The messaging should be disciplined, coordinated, and repeated every single day.
One day the message is voting rights. Another day it’s democracy. Another day it’s the economy. Another day it’s corruption.
Each message should explain the problem and end with a concrete action people can take.
Republicans succeed because they reduce everything to bumper stickers. Democrats often respond with thirty-page policy papers. Important ideas have to become understandable without sacrificing the truth.
We also need to continue calling out hypocrisy.
If you were Russia trying to weaken the United States, many of the outcomes you’d hope for—eroding confidence in elections, dividing Americans against one another, undermining democratic institutions—are exactly what’s happening.
There is enormous political opportunity here if Democrats are willing to communicate more effectively.
Mary Trump: What’s remarkable is that Republicans manage to stay on message despite being, in many respects, completely incompetent.
We always seem to have detailed white papers while they have slogans.
Although, to be fair, it’s difficult to compete with someone like Donald Trump, who apparently invents new words every week.
Joyce Vance: What did he invent this time?
Mary Trump: Apparently he invented the word “earthquake.”
Katie Phang: The Marco Rubio memes are still better.
Joyce Vance: They really are.
Well, we’ve been together for about half an hour, so let’s wrap things up. Mary, would you like to start with some closing thoughts?
Mary Trump: I just want to wish you the happiest birthday. I love you very much, and I hope you have an absolutely wonderful day.
Joyce Vance: Thank you. I love you too.
Mary Trump: And I love you too, Katie—even if today isn’t your birthday.
Katie Phang: Mine’s next week, so I’ll happily borrow some of Joyce’s birthday love.
My closing thought is this: for anyone who was disappointed that we spent part of this conversation talking about dogs and “pee mail,” what you saw today is exactly who we are.
This is how Joyce, Mary, and I talk when we’re together. This is how we talk on the phone, over Zoom, and in person.
Those moments matter because they’re what keep us going. We have this incredible Substack community, and yes, we’re fighting for democracy every day. But we also have to make room for joy, laughter, friendship, and the little things that remind us why the fight matters.
For me, that’s stopping to pet someone’s dog on the street.
We can be fierce. We can be sarcastic. We can be angry. We can also be funny, kind, and completely goofy. Those things aren’t contradictions—they’re what sustain us.
I hope all of you are finding your own little pockets of peace too.
Joyce Vance: That was beautifully said.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. We’re not fighting for democracy because it’s some abstract ideal floating out there somewhere. We’re fighting for it because democracy is what allows us to have happy, meaningful, joyful lives.
If we can’t fight as happy warriors, then we’re losing something important along the way.
Thank you both for spending part of my birthday with me. I love you both.
And Katie, next week we’ll celebrate your birthday too.
Mary Trump: Absolutely.
Katie Phang: Maybe I’ll walk my dog during the livestream.
Mary Trump: Perfect. Let’s all walk our dogs.
Joyce Vance: Thanks, everyone, for joining us today.
Bye, everybody.
 | A guest post by
|
 | A guest post by
|