In Conversation with David Rothkopf and Norm Ornstein
9 June, 2026
[Transcript edited for clarity, flow and length]
Mary Trump: I got together with my friends, Norm Ornstein and David Rothkopf of the DSR Network for their excellent podcast, Words Matter. We talked about some words that matter and, of course, the horrors unfolding around us and why it is very likely things are going to get worse before they get better. Despite all of that, we had a great time, so I think you’ll enjoy it.
David Rothkopf: This is Deep State Radio coming to you direct from our super secret studio in the third sub basement of the Ministry of Snark in Washington, D.C., and from other undisclosed locations across America and around the world.
Hello and welcome to DSR’s Words Matter. I am David Rothkopf, your referee here. Each week we look at what’s going on in Washington with the aid and insight of our friend and Washington guru, Norm Ornstein.
This week, in a special edition of Words Matter, we also have our friend Mary Trump, who we hope will join us every so often to provide her unique form of insight into what’s going on with her uncle. I do not know. We blame a lot of the sins of our society on the parents of the people who lead us, but maybe Mary deserves some of the blame.
What did you do, Mary? What did you do to this guy? As far as I can tell, he was just an ordinary guy from New Jersey. Instead, he is profoundly messed up.
Mary Trump: Sadly, I do not think I had much of a part to play in his deep, dark slide into insanity, to the extent that he was ever sane.
I will say this because it is fun to say. I sold more books in one day than his first book sold in three decades.
Norm Ornstein: You also wrote yours, which is a recurring difference.
David Rothkopf: You have also actually read a book, which I cannot say he has done.
Mary Trump: I wrote one or two.
David Rothkopf: Let me turn to you in your professional capacity. You are trained in psychology in addition to all of your other gifts.
Even in the past couple of months, I have seen a precipitous decline in this man’s mental makeup. He lashes out. He cannot keep his eyes open. He cannot focus for long. He disappears for extended periods. He says things that are bizarre, sometimes frightening because his ideas about the world are frightening, and sometimes simply strange.
He recently suggested leaving the UFC octagon at the White House because they left the Eiffel Tower standing. Then he proudly announced that someone had prepared a chart showing the reflecting pool is longer than many buildings are tall.
I honestly do not know what he was trying to say.
From either a psychological perspective or that of a concerned family member, what is happening?
Mary Trump: I am concerned for all of us. First, all that is left is for him to put the White House up on cement blocks. That is where we are in the Trump regime. And because this podcast is called Words Matter, I think it is important to distinguish between horizontal length and vertical height.
David Rothkopf: You are making good points. You are obviously the black sheep of the family, yet there are still people who hear this and say it is perfectly normal.
Mary Trump: There are a lot of unintelligent people in the world and there are a lot of people with authoritarian personalities who will believe whatever the dear leader says, even when it is utterly nonsensical.
What we are seeing is a difference of degree, not kind.
Donald has been on this trajectory for a very long time, but now we are approaching a perfect storm involving his longstanding, severe, untreated psychiatric disorders together with cognitive decline and age related physical decline. Those problems are made worse by the fact that he is an extraordinarily unhealthy person.
On top of all of that, he is no longer controlling the narrative because his incompetence has become impossible to ignore.
His mission for most of his life has been protecting himself from the knowledge of who he really is while convincing everybody else that he is smart and competent.
That is no longer working.
His sycophants are working overtime praising him and blaming everything on Joe Biden, but that is not working either. Donald is incapable of restraining himself. Every failure causes another outburst, and every outburst costs him a little more of whatever grip on reality he still possesses.
It is also important to remember that he is not fundamentally different today. The cognitive and physical decline are simply revealing who he has always been. He used to hide it better.
David Rothkopf: Does that make him more dangerous?
Mary Trump: Absolutely.
Everybody should be deeply worried. Donald is a nihilist. He cannot imagine a world that survives him. If he believes he is going down, he will try to take everybody with him.
There is a reason he refuses to name a successor. It is unfathomable to him that anyone could or should succeed him. The worse things become, the more desperate he becomes, and the more dangerous he becomes.
Norm Ornstein: Before we move on, if anybody has not read Mary’s books, go buy them.
If you have not seen the beautiful New York Times profile of Mary and her wife, Ronda Cress, go read it.
And subscribe to Ronda’s Substack. It offers thoughtful reflections on humanity, her own experiences, and the work she did in the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department before she left because civil rights became civil wrongs.
Mary Trump: You are making me cry.
Norm Ornstein: I do not want to make this only about Donald.
Jill Biden’s recent book discusses her relationship with Melania Trump, including Melania refusing the traditional tea with the outgoing First Lady and remaining completely detached during the inauguration ride.
What has your own relationship with Melania been? And what about Ivana and Marla Maples?
Mary Trump: I have met Melania twice.
The first time they were still dating. Donald introduced us and immediately began telling her that I had dropped out of college, become addicted to drugs, and that he had saved my life by hiring me to write his book.
None of that was true except dropping out of college.
When he mentioned drugs, she became animated for the first and only time and asked, Really?
I simply said, No.
The second time was at the White House in 2017 for my aunts’ birthdays. We had no interaction at all.
Ivana, whom I had known since I was twelve, was cold, unaffectionate, and not much of an aunt.
Marla and I actually got along. She was completely out of her depth, and my family treated her terribly because she came from a small town in Georgia and was not considered worldly enough.
David Rothkopf: Why is Donald so afraid of his current wife?
Mary Trump: Melania strikes me as extremely calculating.
She knows where the bodies are buried and Donald knows she knows.
Every relationship Donald has, including with his children, is transactional.
Whenever she appears publicly, I find myself wondering how much she was paid.
If she were implicated in anything involving Jeffrey Epstein it would be embarrassing for her, but it would be devastating for Donald because I suspect they appear in those records in very different ways.
Norm Ornstein: Let us talk about Donald’s health.
Every doctor he has ever had has produced laughable reports. He somehow grew from six foot two to six foot three at the exact age people begin shrinking because at six foot three he was merely overweight instead of obese.
Now they claim he weighs 238 pounds.
How has his health really been?
Mary Trump: He has never been healthy.
Given his diet, his lack of exercise, and his habits, I am surprised he is approaching eighty.
Unfortunately, my family tends to live a long time. My grandmother’s oldest sister smoked and drank throughout her life and lived to ninety eight.
David Rothkopf: That is the worst thing anyone has ever said on this podcast.
Mary Trump: One family story illustrates how much appearances mattered.
Donald and my grandfather once posed for an advertisement together.
Just before the photographer took the picture, my grandfather rose onto his tiptoes so he would appear taller than Donald. Height has always been an obsession.
David Rothkopf: Another thing I notice is increasing paranoia.
He is building bunkers, hospitals, security systems, and seems increasingly afraid of public exposure.
Mary Trump: I think he is aware, at least partially, that he is unraveling.
Donald has always had an apocalyptic imagination. He is fascinated by violence while simultaneously repulsed by it.
He has obsessed over nuclear weapons for decades.
If he believes he is losing control, he becomes even more dangerous. The bunker may simply be his way of signaling that he believes everything is collapsing around him.
Norm Ornstein: One thing seems clear. He always escaped consequences because somebody rescued him.
Now Iran is deteriorating, Benjamin Netanyahu is not doing what Donald wants, and the promised quick victory has become a prolonged conflict.
What happens psychologically when Donald finds himself trapped?
Mary Trump: Donald never takes responsibility.
There is always someone else to blame.
The Iran war may become part of his undoing because it exposes his weakness.
He has always escaped disasters because somebody stepped in, whether my grandfather, New York media, banks, NBC, the Republican Party, or the Supreme Court.
That safety net may finally be disappearing.
Republicans are not suddenly developing principles, but many are facing political survival. They may begin distancing themselves simply because it is in their own interest. That will accelerate Donald’s decline.
Unfortunately, it also makes him more dangerous.
As the war drags on he could use it as an excuse to suspend elections or expand executive power. At the same time, the agencies responsible for protecting Americans have been hollowed out by profoundly unqualified leadership.
David Rothkopf: Every week I wake up hoping something has happened overnight that makes the world a better place.
Mary Trump: Eventually we will be done with Donald.
The more important question is whether we will be done with the movement that surrounds him. The encouraging news is that there is nobody in the Republican Party capable of replacing him as its grotesquely charismatic leader.
Norm Ornstein: Let us talk about his taste.
Has it always been this garish?
Mary Trump: Yes.
Honestly, he inherited it.
My grandmother adored the British royal family and fancied herself a woman of impeccable taste. Donald inherited that sensibility.
The difference is that he is now spending public money to transform the people’s house into a version of his private excess.
Every trace of it will have to be removed. The ballroom, the decorations, the branding, all of it. The money he and his children have taken from the American people should pay for restoring what they damaged.
Norm Ornstein: One final observation.
We need a comprehensive reform agenda.
The Vacancies Act, the Federal Tort Claims Act, Supreme Court reform, campaign finance reform and many other structural protections have all been exploited.
Mary Trump: I completely agree. We need a detailed list of reforms that Democratic candidates are willing to champion publicly.
The conversation has to become far more specific than simply defending democracy. We need structural solutions.
More than anything else, I am grateful to spend time with both of you.
The last six years have introduced me to extraordinary people, including my wife, and I never take those relationships for granted.
David Rothkopf: We are grateful to have you with us.
You remain an essential voice, one people trust because you bring a perspective nobody else can offer.
We will continue these conversations and, together, conduct a little group therapy as we navigate what will undoubtedly be a difficult few years.
For now, thank you, Mary.
Thank you, Norm and David.
And thank you to everyone listening.
 | A guest post by
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 | A guest post by
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Donald is the "crazy aunt in the basement" that got turned loose on the country. If the capacity is in the country to vote this person into the White House, then America is having a difficult lesson to learn. So be it and may the wisdom of the learning experience prevail. He is the very opposite of what America represents.
With regard to “structural solutions” allow me to suggest that we identify and inventory every constitutional and statutory loophole that this shithead has exploited and target it for obliteration. A recipe for reform, which, unfortunately, has lots and lots of ingredients.