[ Transcript edited for clarity, flow and length]
Mary Trump: I sat down with the amazing and brilliant Thom Hartmann, and we discussed just how bad things could get under Donald Trump’s leadership and the extent to which Donald is beholden to and potentially advancing Vladimir Putin’s interests. Enjoy.
Thom Hartmann: Mary, welcome back to the program. It’s so nice to have you again.
Mary Trump: It’s always wonderful to be with you, Thom, even under the circumstances.
Thom Hartmann: Indeed. I was talking a little earlier about my concern that Natalie Harp is playing kind of the role of Rasputin or Hitler’s courtiers, giving Donald what he wants to hear rather than what he needs to hear. And this latest polling is really in the crapper for him. You know him really, really well, plus you have the insights that come with having a PhD in clinical psychology and having been in practice. How desperate do you think he might be? We can talk about that in the context of the elections or anything else here. What might he do out of that desperation?
Mary Trump: It is really, really all going south for him, and we’re seeing increasingly that he’s flailing. He’s desperate because, as much as he’s surrounded by the most sycophantic sycophants like Natalie Harp and Stephen Miller, well, all of them at this point, we don’t have to single anybody out. Although, of course, Natalie Harp has more access than anybody, which, as you point out, is deeply troubling.
So he is, in some regards, being protected from the worst information there is out there. But it’s so bad that even he, who has spent his entire life protecting his fragile ego from the truth of the fact that he’s a loser and an incompetent, knows that he’s losing control of the narrative. He’s trying to change the subject and trying to regain the upper hand by using his unfathomable power against those countries and individuals weaker than he is. Again, he’s trying to protect himself from what we have to say at this point are mistakes of his own making. Every bad thing that’s happening to him right now is down to him.
Thom Hartmann: There’s been a lot of speculation about things he might do. Apparently, there has been a discussion in the White House about using a tactical nuclear weapon against Iran. He has cut off Ukraine from any kind of weaponry that might protect them from Putin. Where is that going to go?
Then, of course, we’ve got this whole thing where he’s trying to rig the election. Do you think that we might hit a point where Donald Trump simply says, “Okay, that’s it. Democracy’s over. I’m declaring a state of emergency. This is the end of it?”
Mary Trump: Thom, I think it’s really interesting that we are finally at the point that some of us were warning about back in 2020. There is nothing Donald won’t do to protect himself. It’s funny, when we did have those conversations six very long years ago, we were often met with incredulity.
I said, “Listen, if Donald thinks he’s going down, he’ll take everybody with us.” And people would laugh and say, “You cannot possibly be serious.” Here we are, where we have to have this conversation on a much broader scale because he is not just signaling. He is telling us what he’ll do.
I think the simplest way to understand Donald at this point is to understand that there’s no such thing as worst. He will always get worse. He will always do the next worst thing, whether that is a tactical nuclear weapon in Iran, abandoning our ally Ukraine, which quite frankly he did a long time ago, or using the power of the presidency to declare martial law and cancel an election he knows his party is going to lose.
Thom Hartmann: An old friend of mine, Armin Lehmann, was a dear friend of mine back in the ’80s. We traveled around the world for a couple of years together. We were working at that time, and it’s a whole long story, but Armin was the sixteen year old Hitler Youth who delivered the news to Hitler that the war was lost.
He wrote a book about it, in fact, that’s still in print, called In Hitler’s Bunker. Armin told me that when Hitler learned that basically the war was lost, he ordered the German army to bomb Germany, to kill his own people, because he felt that they had failed him, not that he had failed Germany.
Is there enough of a correspondence between Hitler’s psychological profile and Trump’s that we might see a day when Trump actually joins with his dear friend Vladimir Putin, who appears, every two weeks since he became president, to have at least a one hour phone conversation with him, and turns against America?
Mary Trump: I think you can argue that that happened a long time ago. Almost every domestic and national security move Donald has made benefits Putin. I don’t want to say Russia because, as you point out, Putin doesn’t care about the Russian people any more than Donald cares about the American people.
Donald is, I think, the equivalent of doing what Hitler did, which was start to destroy infrastructure. He is bankrupting our farmers. He is making it impossible for Americans to afford basic necessities like gas and food. He is destroying our alliances. He is engaging in the kinds of toxic masculinity that are designed to unravel the fabric of an evolved society.
Every single thing this man does is to the detriment of the American people. It’s to the detriment of American democracy and to the benefit of countries that used to be our most dangerous enemies, like Russia and North Korea. So, yes, I think he’s well on his way to committing to the kind of project Hitler aspired to.
Thom Hartmann: Wow. That’s worse than I had considered, but it makes perfect sense. I’ve been speculating for years that Trump was either afraid of or in the pocket of Putin specifically, or the KGB and the FSB more broadly, for those very reasons that you just outlined.
Mary Trump: Before we continue, please take a second to like this video and subscribe to the channel. Also, leave a comment below and let’s keep the conversation going. Thanks for watching.
Thom Hartmann: How do we best respond to this, both as a country and individually, and how do we discuss this with our friends and neighbors who may not be paying careful attention to the news?
Mary Trump: Well, I’ll answer the second part first, to the extent I can, because that is a very difficult question. I think the truth of the matter is that, in certain parts of the country, only friends and neighbors and family can have the kinds of discussions that need to be had. I know that it feels risky. I know a lot of people have lost family and friends because of Donald Trump’s involvement in politics, which is sort of an ancillary knock on effect of putting somebody as divisive as he is in power.
I think we need to make it less about policy and more about who we are and who we want to be. Instead of saying to people, “Listen, he’s doing all these horrible things and you’re supporting it,” we need to start putting the ball in their court and asking questions. “Is it okay with you that this government is killing American citizens in American streets? Is it okay that they are making it impossible for people to feed their families?” There’s a whole long list of questions that can be asked. Ask the ones that resonate the most with the person you’re trying to have that conversation with.
As to the other part, what can we as a country do? The most obvious, basic thing is that we need to make sure that in November, the American people make it as clear as it can possibly be that this regime is unacceptable. We reject the kinds of fascism and corruption and anti democratic hostilities this regime represents. We reject all of these things entirely and wholesale, and we will put into power the kinds of people who understand what’s going on, how important accountability is, and that the United States of America has to expend much of its efforts going forward strengthening our alliances and, quite frankly, making up for all of the horrific things the Trump regime and the Republican Party have been allowed to do to our country and to our allies.
Thom Hartmann: Yeah, we really need to be having that conversation in that context. By the way, in a little less than a minute and a half, I’m going to hit a hard break that I can’t stop here, so this is time to keep it tight. I’m curious about your thoughts on John Roberts, Sam Alito, and Clarence Thomas going along with Trump’s mail in voting purge because they’re terrified their own corruption will be exposed. Sheldon Whitehouse came on this program and said, “I want to drag them in front of Congress.” I’m curious if you have any thoughts on that.
Mary Trump: John Roberts has so much to answer for, starting with Citizens United. This corrupt, illegitimate supermajority of the Supreme Court needs to be held in front of Congress. Alito, Thomas, and Roberts all need to be impeached, as far as I’m concerned.
Thom Hartmann: Yeah, and there’s a growing sentiment to that effect, so we’ll see how all this plays out. My sense of it, and I’d love to get your thoughts, is that we’re on the cusp of either a great progressive revival or turning into a total fascist country. What are your thoughts?
Mary Trump: Those are the options right now, and I tell people whenever I can that it is often in the darkest moments in our history that we are able to make the most fundamental change for the better. So let’s look at it that way. Let’s pick the first option, please. The only way we do that is to get these corrupt fascists out of power.
[Subscribe note]
Thom Hartmann: That’s true, and it happens about every eighty years. The American Revolution, and eighty years later, the Civil War. Eighty years after that, the Republican Great Depression, and now we’re eighty years out from the end of World War II. It’s like history is trying to tap us on the shoulder or something. I don’t get it.
Mary Trump, the brilliant Mary Trump. Mary, thanks so much for dropping by. It’s always great talking with you, and I always learn something. Thank you.
Mary Trump: The conversation continues in the comments, so let us know what you think.
I believe that the following points made by Mary to Thom should be broadly forecasted. They include "Donald is, I think, the equivalent of doing what Hitler did, which was start to destroy infrastructure. He is bankrupting our farmers. He is making it impossible for Americans to afford basic necessities like gas and food. He is destroying our alliances. He is engaging in the kinds of toxic masculinity that are designed to unravel the fabric of an evolved society.
Every single thing this man does is to the detriment of the American people. It’s to the detriment of American democracy and to the benefit of countries that used to be our most dangerous enemies, like Russia and North Korea. So, yes, I think he’s well on his way to committing to the kind of project Hitler aspired to."
Thom used to live down the street from me in Montpelier, Vermont. Good brain!!!